Talk:Asia

Can you explain the word topissa? Also, I think that Cemen is a better word for planet Earth than Ambar. Iron gollum 20:52, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think we better leave cemen for the soil or the earth, as opposed to the menel; and the Ambar for the world, or 'the Earth' as the planet we dwell from Tolkien's definitions for the two words and their roots, as denoted by Helge K. Fauskanger in his English-Quenya wordlist:

"EARTH cemen (soil). (Note: at the time Tolkien wrote Etym, he thought of cemen as the genitive of cén, but later cemen evidently became the nominative form, as it had been in earlier writings [LT1:257]. In Silm:433, it is said that cemen [kemen] refers to 'the Earth as a flat floor beneath menel, the heavens'. LT1:257, reproducing early material, also has cemi 'earth, soil, land' and Kémi 'Mother Earth'.) Locative cemendë 'on earth' in VT43:17. HEAVEN AND EARTH Menel Cemenyë (VT47:11). EARTH-QUEEN Kementári (Yavanna's title); EARTHEN, OF EARTH cemna. (LR:363 gves 'kemina', but according to VT45:19, this is a misreading for 'kemna' in Tolkien's manuscript.) EARTH (= world) Ambar (world) (Tolkien equated Ambar with Oikoumene, a Greek word denoting 'world' considered as 'the inhabited world of Men'. [...] EARTH-DWELLERS -LT2:343 gives indi, rendered 'earthdwellers' and said to be another word for 'men', but this is hardly a valid word in LotR-style Quenya. -KEM/Silm:433/LT1:257/VT44:34, MBAR cf. Letters:283 or SD:409"
 * As quoted above, Tolkien connects Ambar to the Greek 'Oikoumene' as 'the inhabited world of Men', which is the Earth or the Plane we human beings live (as we are not aliens :P). And also from the definition of the stem of Ambar implying the concept that 'the Earth' is the home of humans. How about others' idea?--Bellenion 02:33, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, you're right. I would also consider the word Arda. As far as I understand, Arda has a more "geographical" meaning than Ambar, which is rather culturological. Say, if we speak of the majority of the world's population which lives in Asia, we use the word Ambar, while, speaking of the land mass or the location, we use Arda (since Asia is not located in the eastern hemisphere of the inhabited world, but of the Earth). How about that? Iron gollum 08:50, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, Arda would be a more suitable word for our planet 'Earth' as mentioned in the wordlist, too.--Bellenion 12:56, May 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also topissa is the 3rd person (neuter) aorist of top- 'to cover'.--Bellenion 03:08, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I still don't get it, sorry :) We have the stem top- and the aorist suffix -i-. Now the ending for 3rd person singular should be either -s or -ryë (I am referring to Thorsten Renk). Am I wrong? Iron gollum 08:50, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * -s(sa) as the 3rd person (neuter) pronominal ending can be found in PE17:57. It is also mentioned by Thorsten Renk in his Quenya course p.19.--Bellenion 12:56, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I found it. It didn't appear in the 1.0 version of his course. Iron gollum 14:21, May 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * In my original context, nór refers to 'continent' as a "land opposed to water and sea", not simply a 'place'. Also why an ar was added before marë in the sentence "Asia aralt' ar i nómë Cemendio yassë arilimbë lië ar marë nórion ná."?--Bellenion 13:13, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Does the sentence say "Asia is the greatest continent and the one where most people's home countries are" or "...and the one where most people and countries are"? I thought you meant the latter case, but your question implies that it was the former, right? In this case, you can remove ar but you should put lië into possessive. Iron gollum 14:21, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually my original sentence 'Asia aralt' ar i nór yassë arilimbë lië marë nórion ná' meant "Asia is the greatest continent and the one wherein most people dwell." So there is no need to make lië a possessive.--Bellenion 10:46, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Should it not be ...i nór yassë arilimbë lië marë ná without nórion then? I don't understand, what nórion refers to in this case (please don't misinterprete it as criticism or so, I am really confused a bit). Iron gollum 00:33, May 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, I agree with nór, it was a misunderstanding on my side, sorry. Iron gollum 14:21, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

About the units of measurement in Arda...

 * Thinking that if we need to convert all the units of measurement in this Neo Quenya Wiki into the elvish term can be found in the Middle-earth? For example,
 * Length: leper or lepsë 'finger', má 'hand', tál 'foot', lár 'league', ranga 'yard', and rangwë 'fathom'
 * Area: resta 'acre', ostar 'township'--Bellenion 14:33, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Should we just stick to the SI units? Because there really isn't much of a way to convert metre or kilometre into elvish, unless you make up entirely new words (but there is a word in earlier Qenya that can be used for kilo, húmë: thousand''). ''And to convert everything into foot and the Númenórean yard every time is really troublesome. Last Waterbender 15:35, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

That's a very difficult question which I've also been thinking about. The problem with the "traditional" non-metric measurement systems is that they are partially very different from country to country. Yes, Tolkien, being a British, surely meant British standards when he described lengthes and so on in his books. But, if we imagine for a moment that Eldar have been a real nation, there is no proof that the Eldar foot is equal to the British one and not, for example, to the now-obsolete German one or different from any of known country-specific foot units. That means we cannot reconstruct the exact metric values of the units wich were "originally" used by the Eldar. Hence, I would opt for the use of the metric system and the untroduction of respective units as type III neologisms. Iron gollum 00:33, May 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, if the problem is Tolkien's definitions of the units of measurement, then we have had some clear statements, which we can read in the UT:285,461:
 * "Measures of distance are converted as nearly as possible into modern terms. "League" is used because it was the longest measurement of distance: in Númenórean reckoning (which was decimal) five thousand rangar (full paces) made a lár, which was very nearly three of our miles. Lár meant "pause," because except in forced marches a brief halt was usually made after this distance had been covered [see note 9 above]. The Númenórean ranga was slightly longer than our yard, approximately thirty-eight inches, owing to their great stature. Therefore five thousand rangar would be almost exactly the equivalent of 5280 yards, our "league:" 5277 yards, two feet and four inches, supposing the equivalence to be exact. [......] Thus two rangar was often called "man-high," which at thirty-eight inches gives an average height of six feet four inches [......]"
 * But I do agree that it's quite annoying to convert every contemporary unit into lár and ranga, and probably some notations in the page of the SI units to the equivalent lár or ranga are enough.--Bellenion 02:20, May 14, 2010 (UTC)